Pedro Dias is Director of SEO and development / Managing Partner at apis3
Managing an agency, Pedro works across a range of disciplines, taking inspiration from the work of Saul Bass and Paul Rand as well as some Industrial Design references, like Dieter Rams, Philippe Starck and James Dyson; leveraging design thinking in all he does.
Pedro joined Google in March 2006, and represented the company as a search expert until September 2011, working on myriad of global projects. Infusing his fluency for design to the business needs of cutting edge technologies, he touched the core of a cultural phenomena.
When he is not working on full-spectrum of digital consulting, Pedro enjoys travel, hiking and going exploring on photographic adventures and spending time with his family at the beach or chilling at the pool.
This post is part of a series called ‘Conversations in Search’. I discuss the current state of SEO practice with other SEO experts and discover their views on the future of SEO.
Damien: Hey, Pedro! Thank you so much for your time. How’s life in São Paulo? Your city is just as famous as London for its weather, all the seasons in one day. Before we start, how are you, how are your family and friends?
Pedro: Ah, it’s been kind of strange times. I feel like I am doing double the work and achieve half of the things I want to because as an agency, we get things done close to people usually. We have an office here of around between 60 and 70 people in the agency, and being close to people, gives you more traction and speed in how things happen.
I see the benefits of it, of being at home, but I sometimes miss the office dynamics. We learn. I think we learned a few things with this isolation, and I’m okay. I mean, everyone else is okay, health-wise, despite the state of things in Brazil, which is one of the countries it’s still kind of spiking.
It’s scary because I know how Brazil is in terms of health organisation and not everyone has access to good hospitals. The lack of infrastructure makes it a bit of a scary situation. in terms of how it might scale.
Damien: I am glad to hear you’re good, you’re healthy your family is all well, and you’re just adapting?
Pedro: Yeah. We don’t even know what the new normal is going to be like, because everyone talks about opening up, well we don’t see how it’s going to be after opening up. As soon as you start getting together, you’ll see new cases, and I’ve read claims of people getting re-infected already. I don’t know how common it is, if it’s just one isolated case or if it’s something that can happen? What is the new normal going to be? As a managing partner and director of the company, I work with, and we are considering implementing a rotation of people.
Whereas before we were thinking of getting a bigger office to fit more people in, now we believe we should stick with this office and implement a rotation of when people come in and work from home. We need to sort all of this out and are thinking about going back into the office after everyone has opened up. Let the building owners sort out the dynamics of the building and the influx of people.
Damien: There is a level of your career you’ve reached now where responsibility rests with you and your leadership team to make these tough decisions.
Pedro: There’s a lot of stuff involved when you are dealing with people. When you have a responsibility, you have people’s livelihoods in your hands. Definitely like there’s a payroll that you always have to respect. For example, I have to pay my employees before myself as a business owner.
There are these kinds of decisions where I will always choose to benefit my colleagues rather than myself. Sometimes the choices that we take help the whole company, and are more than making more money or whatever. There’s a lot of stuff involved when you have people that you are responsible for, either directly or indirectly. Directly I have two teams that I’m responsible for: SEO and web development team. Indirectly I have the finance team, the media team and the rest of the office with my partners.
Damien: Let’s take a step back and learn more about your background, Pedro. Tell us about your time in education and what your ambition was back then?
Pedro: I got to play with computers fairly early, fortunately. I got my first computer, like in 1983 or 1984 it was a Spectrum. An Amiga was my dream, but first I got the Spectrum, a basic computer with tape. I would have to wait like half an hour for each game to load. Imagine waiting for like 30 minutes for Pac Man to load or something like this. It was really hell. I started to play with Basic language at that time because I wanted to hack into games and put my name on the screen while the game was loading.
I had this spirit of tinkering with things. My mother, Maria, said I always like to open toys to see how they worked inside. That comes from curiosity, I guess, to see how things work, how things are put together.
I’ve always had this tinkering spirit in me, and I liked to hack with stuff. After a while, I got an Amiga. Things got more fun to play with and programming-wise because the computer had more capacity and was faster. I had after school classes with a tutor for math. The tutor would pass me problems that I would have to do by programming the question and answering the problem with the computer. I would go home and take the sheet of paper that he would give me with the problem and I would program the problem on my computer, and I would solve the problem, and I would provide the answer to him the next day.
When I was younger, my local school didn’t have money to put a computer on each desk. They had a shared space where all the students would go to play with computers. I remember all the screens being either monochrome or green, and there were no colour monitors at the time. We would use floppy disks to load the programmes that we wanted. I remember the first time that we had the first computer with colour, in the late 1980s. That computer always had kids crammed around it because nobody cared about the monochrome computer anymore.
Damien: You learnt about computers and code by hacking the programmes, did that curiosity of stick with you when you went to University?
Pedro: The funny thing is that despite having this spirit of breaking stuff, I went to University to learn arts. I got very interested in advertising and drawing, and I started to use computers to draw. I was using very early, let’s say primitive drawing tools. The drawing was my main hobby, and I used the computers to create wallpapers and stuff that I would put into game screens. Computer graphics captured me, so I ended up studying the arts. I was split between this nerdy part of me that enjoyed programming and arts that I love. At the time art appealed to me more than computers.
At some point after doing my undergraduate and graduating from industrial and product design at Escola Superior de Tecnologias e Artes de Lisboa in 1996, I went on to the Faculdade de Design, Tecnologia e Comunicação, IAED for short. They had this partnership at the time with the Glasgow University of Arts. Many people would do program exchanges there.
I did my major of graduation, which is equivalent to an MA in Art Graphic Design at IAED. I did a post-graduate in Communication and Image, which is more towards marketing and creating a brand, and I did a two-year intensive course in web design and studied between 1996 to 2002. I did the web design study in parallel with the main course of study. At the time, it was not very common to do web design. Design agencies started to have web design departments at that time. I was made responsible for the web design department of the agency I where I was working.
Damien: So you’re crammed with so much study, and then your first job is with an agency.
Pedro: Yes, it was a small agency in Lisbon, called IP Quatro, later rebranded to Media Consulting. Fortunately, we had great clients at the national level, so I got to tinker with brands like the Portuguese Broadcast Television, The Portuguese Underground Railway, and Tourism Portugal. I designed cans for tuna fish, and the designs are still around today in supermarkets.
Damien: You’re producing this fantastic art, and found a bridge to technology in your first employment with the agency. Once you’ve finished your studies, what was your ambition?
Pedro: My ambition is to go abroad. I wanted to leave Portugal and find other cultures and see inside this advertising area what I would like to achieve. I wanted more challenges to deal with different kinds of cultural exposures. I started to look for opportunities outside of Portugal. Meanwhile, I met my wife, Marianna, who was back then my girlfriend.
We met through the internet at the time, and we met in 2002. She was in Hungary, and I was in Portugal, we flew to Prague, and we met there in real life. MSN Messenger helped us get to know each other, and I purchased my first webcam just to see and chat with her. I was looking for international opportunities at the time, and at the same time, I met her.
At some point, she says ‘I would like to go to Ireland, to live there or to the UK.’ Our common language is English. Although I know Hungarian and she knows Portuguese, when we need something quick we say it in English, we’re an international household.
Marianna found that Google was hiring in Ireland at that time, in 2006. They were looking for people that had like a superior degree in anything. They must know web technologies, because they will have to deal with reviewing websites, looking at the quality of sites. I had this background in web development and web design. It was six years after I was out of University.
Damien: You spent several years in agency life before you moved internationally to then take on a role with Google. On reflection, what lessons did you gain from your time working agency-side?
Pedro: I think it’s how to appreciate the qualitative part of the technology, and how to make pretty things. Most engineers they’re not very good at making things pretty, they’re good at making things work.
I had the skill of taking ugly interfaces and making them beautiful. Once I got into Google, I was surprised to get my job at Google, and I never expected to get in, I went through like five phone interviews before they called me in. It was like a leap of faith because I knew that I would be using my design skills and going into something that was not well defined. At that time, I knew that it was towards more engineering and more technology areas, but it was still undefined. So I said yes, I went and said ‘Okay, I have the knowledge to do this’, and anything else, they said that they would teach me, and I would be able to absorb it.
Damien: Thinking back to that time, it sounds like a pivotal point in your lives. How did it feel moving countries, jobs and establishing your relationship?
Pedro: I moved to Ireland in March 2006 and arrived in the middle of St. Patrick’s festivities. It was so difficult to find a place to rent and to stay. Everything was booked out. Marianna found a job too, with another company. In the beginning we didn’t have a car, and Dublin is mostly flat, so we got used to walking everywhere pushing the trolley of our 3 year old son, Daniel. One day, we walked so far that it got dark by the time we started coming back. As we passed in front of a Garda (police) station, we heard a police comment ‘You’re gonna disgrace yourselves’. I guess he disapproved we were out so late on the street, pushing a baby trolley.
I found myself in a very happy place inside Google, as part of the tools development team, where I was responsible for web browser toolbars, icons and interfaces for mostly internally facing tools.
Engineers would build this stuff for people to use. I would do the job and would have spare time to do this user interface design. I would make my colleagues’ lives a bit easier when they would deal with tools built by engineers. I was very early on involved in projects of tools to evaluate things and all kinds of tools that engineers use. Even in projects like Google News, I got to touch a bit of Google News and a little bit of user interface for Google News as a side project.
Damien: Do you remember what your first project was in user interfaces at Google?
Pedro: Yeah, it was a browser toolbar. I created icons for a browser toolbar. People use it for shortcuts for other tools and to put websites through all the tools that they need to. I helped mostly to make the internal-facing tools beautiful, building on the functional capabilities.
Damien: You’re in Google. It’s got a reputation for innovation. What was your expectation of Google versus reality?
Pedro: I was overwhelmed when I got in there. I go from Portugal, from a small advertising agency to Google. It’s like going from the street to the International Space Station where you can see everything. Your notion of international, of global scale it kind of blows up. It’s completely different from the perspective that you have, and you understand the extent that one business can operate, versus that you are just running in a small business. It’s not only the technology that it’s open to you, but the openness that you can reach to anyone at Google, and you can talk with them about a need that you have that also interests them.
You have the best scientists, and the best engineers are working there in the most various fields. It’s just a matter of going to the Google directory to find the person that has the knowledge that you need. Then you can just travel, or the person can travel to where you are, and do a project together. Funny enough that was the one thing that drove me into communications and to expose my face publicly.
I worked at Google without showing my face for two years. Then you start to question yourself. I saw people doing things wrong, and they could be doing better work, and not doing this stuff that gets them into penalties and stuff like that. I asked myself ‘What is driving people to think like this?’. I found myself wanting to help people. In 2007, Vanessa Fox visited Dublin, that was the first time I met Vanessa Fox.
At the time she was in charge of building Google Webmaster Tools, now Google Search Console, which was just an XML sitemap submission tool. We met, chatted, and she said ‘Oh you’re Portuguese, do you want to take care of the Portuguese language Webmaster Forum?’. I was like ‘Why me?’, she said something like ‘You’re the only Portuguese guy I know, and you are the most senior person with Portuguese language skills here in the search quality team.’ So, do you want to take care of it? You’ll have to moderate spam and master what you feel comfortable with’. I said ‘Okay’.
That’s when I started with my external communications, to handle the Portuguese Google Webmaster Forum in 2007.
Damien: You initially joined Google in a design-focused role, within the search quality team, then you became a public face for the search quality team, what happened next?
Pedro: I did work mostly for the search quality team, but I worked with many other groups. Once they knew that there was this guy that did interfaces, I had many different groups asking for my skills to create interfaces for their tools. One of the opportunities I had to work on was a public-facing project with Google News.
I learned about design systems way before I got into Google, that was part of my degree, my background. At the time, Google didn’t have Android or material design or anything like that. I tried to get this culture into Google by unifying the consistency of look and feel towards user interfaces.
I don’t know if you remember that time, Google Calendar had one look, Gmail had another, Google Feed had yet another look. These were concerns that I raised very early on, asking ‘Why does the Google logo look different on all these services?, or ‘Why does the search box have different sizes?’.
I was thrilled when the first look and feel unification came. I don’t know if you remember that black bar came across pretty much all Google services. I was still at Google at that time and was happy with that unification of design, and it was paving the way for Google+.
Damien: As a designer to see that come to fruition, how did you feel?
Pedro: Great, I gave input into some stuff at that time, and I felt appreciative that my feedback was considered. You kind of feel proud to see at some points that some small part of this was my responsibility. Nobody knows, but I know it.
Damien: Many website owners limit their perspective on SEO. Mostly, they just want to get more traffic from Google. That thought of ‘more traffic’ must have been considered as narrow thinking within the search quality team, what drove you and the team at that time?
Pedro: I saw many people under utilising their skills. You know, having a website, back then was kind of a big thing, it was the early days of the web so having a website was already a competitive advantage. Once many sites start to launch and take flight, this competitive advantage starts to fade away, and you begin to see that people do not realise that having your website and doing all these tricks is not enough anymore.
If they are missing what I would perceive as creating value or making something desirable, or making something useful for users, I would care about user experience; about the users in what I would consider when deciding on architecture of the website. I would see all this boilerplate advice supersede robust knowledge and be taken on by all the SEOs. Suddenly, SEOs are responsible for running websites on the web because you have to appear in Google, but everyone else would forget about product quality.
Product quality was one of the drivers that kind of pushed me into communications. I was like ‘Man, I can tell people not to forget about these other aspects that they should consider when having a website.’
I signed up for Twitter, and I met Matt Cutts in 2007. A bit later, after Vanessa Fox, he came to Dublin. I was so fortunate I met Vanessa Fox, Matt Cutts and Urs Hölzle in the same year. Urs is the guy that designed the Google data centre infrastructure and everything. He gave the lecture about the life of a query. When Matt Cutts came to Dublin, I had just started blogging. Matt Cutts, said ‘Why don’t you blog about search too, the things that you do?’ I asked Matt if it was okay to blog about what people should not do. He said something like ‘It’s okay, as long as you don’t talk about anything confidential, and if you’ve got doubts, then search for it on Google first’.
Back then, Google was a bit much more cautious about what we communicated because systems were more rudimentary; they did not have so much brain power, artificial intelligence and other technologies. There was a lot of ‘cat and mouse’ with spam. Google was careful about how they communicated. Then I started to get the attention of the Portuguese language webmasters, both in Portugal and in Brazil. Brazil was a much bigger hub than Portugal, each country if you compare Portugal and Brazil, Brazil is like 95% of the Portuguese language market if not more.
I directed most of my communication towards Portuguese webmasters in Brazil. In 2008, Google organised one of the first Webmaster facing conferences called ‘Google Search Masters’. It was an event put on in many countries, and I was responsible for going to Mexico and Brazil. We got a bunch of Google people together with different knowledge to talk about specific things for webmasters, and my role was to communicate about the Google Webmaster Forum and Google Quality Guidelines to webmasters.
My exposure exploded from there. I got a lot of exposure from going to Mexico and Brazil and speaking on behalf of Google. Looking back, it felt weird, and I still have the recording of those sessions today. I remember I felt like I was shaking, I wasn’t, and speaking at the same time as I had never spoken in public to so many people. It was both scary and exciting at the same time.
Damien: What are the lessons that you take forward with you now in your career from those times?
Pedro: Mostly, the decisions that you make in business they usually originated elsewhere. What we work on today, all these disciplines of SEO, marketing and so on, the decisions that you make are still prevalent, most of the cornerstone decisions, they originated long before the digital world.
Suppose you think about, like, the decisions that you have to make for a sound website SEO wise. You have to think about information architecture, and you have to think about web accessibility, which makes the website findable in Google, you have to think about usability.
If you don’t know anything about SEO, but if you know a lot about these things you’re already on par with most of the basic to advanced SEOs. It’s not like there’s a whole new thing to learn, and I feel that many people came into SEO and instead of studying these cornerstone areas of that give them solid foundations on why decisions are made in a certain way.
They went on to read SEO books, and not that it is a problem to read your books, it’s a problem if you only read SEO books. You can learn SEO from books but go and read up on information architecture, read about web accessibility and information retrieval and language processing and generation.
Damien: Or even read about psychology and get a better understanding of consumer behaviours?
Pedro: Yes! When they don’t, they miss out. As much as SEOs want to simplify a decision based on what they see, it’s constrained by the limited focus. Imagine you might know that the clock ticks in a certain way and has this and that gear. You see the logic of how a clock works. When some SEOs are putting things out based on simple logic, the binary way they pass on methods risks teaching other people to think about problems in careless ways.
It’s going to fail for them because they’re going to learn that, to think or to solve this problem that they only have to apply simplistic thinking — for example, the argument about subdirectories versus subdomains.
Damien: Can you answer that for me. What is better? ;-)
Pedro: I can answer that for you, but first I’m going to say the weight of the decision should never be left to SEO alone. The reason to use a subdomain for a technical reason and the reason to use a subdomain for search engine benefit have different purposes. The technology issues it resolves have way more weight than the SEO.
There is no rule. You have to understand why subdomains are used in technology solutions, and how a search engine sees them before you draw a solution on how to use them in a website.
SEOs should be talking about this sort of thing with responsibility a lot oversimplifying and putting things in a way that they seem so simple to decide between them and it’s not.
For example, I worked with a client with a large website in Portugal and Brazil. Although they offer the same products and services in both markets, I drew different decisions regarding how to structure their website for Portugal and Brazil.
Their original website was broken into sub-folders, and they were categorised into cities and geographic areas. This was done both for Brazil and Portugal, the same way. There were no subdomains. Brazil is geographically divided, and Portugal is geographically divided differently, and it makes a difference in how people perceive the limitations based on where they live.
Portugal has regions, and Brazil does not have regions. Portugal is the size of one Brazil state. Just the state of San Paolo has more people than the whole of Portugal. At the same time, the Portuguese searcher that lives in one end of Portugal is willing to travel to the other end to get this thing. In Brazil, they are not; there’s no way that someone is going to fly into another state or two states to buy something.
Damien: Gotcha. In those terms, based on the market saturation and locale, you’re making choices.
Pedro: Absolutely. So, with this knowledge in mind and other data on search volumes, I went ahead, and I said, what we are going to do is split the Brazilian property by state, by subdomain. We are going to create a subdomain for each state, because we have enough content, enough volume and enough users searching for this to justify splitting by state.
Damien: The onward benefit is that you can then more reliably present that state in search results.
Pedro: Google is more able to regionalise or segment, or geographically define a sub-domain to be relevant for a geographical area, rather than a sub-folder. The subfolder gets a lot of signals from the primary domain and all the signals coming from the main domain and overpowers the geographical signals that are more relevant in this case for the website to stand alone in that geographic area.
The Portuguese one, I didn’t make this decision, and we said okay we are going to stick with how it is on a single domain, we are just going to make the architecture better and organise the content by cities and regions. You know what, we tripled the traffic in the Brazilian site.
It proves the fact that it’s not one thing it’s better than the other. It’s about what better solves the problem that you are handling? It’s not that it’s better for SEO, it’s better for this specific scenario, and the particular problem that you are solving.
Damien: Business fundamentals need to be at the heart of product decisions and SEO as vital as it is, is a layer above those things.
Pedro: Yes, because SEO is a polishment that you put on top of everything. If you don’t have a competitive advantage, if your product is not good, SEO is not going to solve any of this. SEO is not going to put value where value does not exist.
Damien: What optimisations are underutilised by businesses, Pedro?
Pedro: Businesses don’t ask users often enough their opinion about their website or about their product. Do you think my site is complete? Did you expect something more from my website?
We make many assumptions based on whoever is driving the marketing department or the technology department. These fields need to converge more because they look at solutions often in isolation. They assume if they take what this guy is doing on or do it the same, that they will be okay. That’s a decent place to start. Don’t forget to ask your users what they think in the company and outside the company.
Think about what makes you unique and if you don’t make that prevalent and upfront to your users, they are not going to understand why they should buy from me instead of buying from the guy next door. You have to think about this difference, what makes you unique and work on them, because that’s what will drive your business forward.
If you don’t surprise users over their expectations in anything that makes you different from your competitors, you’re not going to stand out.
Damien: Who would you say has had the most significant influence on you in your professional life?
Pedro: That’s a tough one. Those are mixed. My first thought is, of course, my family and my wife. Maybe it was my maths teacher, for sure he put me on the track for solving stuff with programming problems, his name is Rui Soares.
Although he lived in the US, and he dealt mostly with the US team, Matt Cutts gave me a lot of insightful advice. Because I was part of the team that was directed by him, we were in contact every week. You could listen to him for hours speak about stuff that was not, sometimes even search-related but the way that he puts his mind to work problems is ingenious and puts things in a way that it’s so simple that you can feel you almost find yourself like stupid for not having to talk about that. He helped me form opinions on how to bring stuff to the web.
The first thing Matt told me when I met him in 2007, and I said I had a blog, he said ‘Never post when you’re angry, never write anything when you’re angry.’ I still carry that with me today. He is a humble guy too. There are many other people, and it’s tough to pinpoint one to one, but I think Matt was one of the most driving forces.
I have learned a lot too from the kindness that John Mueller has when communicating with people. I was a Googler before John Mueller, but I met him on the web when he had his own business. He had a software company, and he would help users on the Google Webmaster Forums. John was one of the top contributors in the English Webmaster Forums, and people liked him so much that they hired him at Google.
By looking at this style, his answers to people, how he doesn’t get angry about people being mad at him, I learned a lot from that. I wish I could be more like John sometimes. He doesn’t get dragged into these arguments and ego measurement, there’s a lot of ego measuring in SEO
Damien: Do you still participate in the Google Webmaster Forums?
Pedro: Yes, I still do, because I feel so attached to it because I was part of its inception. The thing that I learned from Google, coming from such a humble background, I was not a computer scientist that had like degrees from Stanford or whatever. I feel humbled to have been part of Google, and I learnt that the world is only as big as you make it. I discovered that I had skills that were highly valuable to them. I ended up learning all the Python programming stuff and integrated the tools development team for a while, helping with functionalities and UI.
Damien: How would you describe the current state of where we are as an industry of SEO professionals?
Pedro: I think we are slowly getting better. I see lots of people discussing disciplines that are not the core of SEO, but they explained a lot of what SEO is about more openly. They’re not so quick to close user experience down whereas once they were. Many still are. Before I used to see a lot of people pushing back on this and saying ‘Oh no, SEO is just like links and keywords, and that’s it’.
There was a perception that Google was trying to divert the attention of SEOs. As Google evolves, I see people more accepting that they need to think about all these other surrounding areas. The way that they make decisions in SEO, it’s not just because of Google, or because I read in a book about SEO, it goes beyond that.
Damien: What is the future of SEO, Pedro?
Pedro: I think we have to find a bigger fish to fry. There’s going to be a time where most of the basics of SEO are done by default. I mean, look at WordPress. Before, you would have to go through a lot of hurdles to get your IT team to make friendly URLs, XML sitemaps, a good page title or whatever. Today, you just install WordPress, and it comes out of the box with these elements already configured in a good way for SEO. You don’t even need a plugin or a consultant.
Most of the technical stuff tends to be solved by technology. As we advance the things that do not need to hold a competitive advantage, and constantly create value, are going to be solved algorithmically or technically. Technology is going to cease being a burden for whoever wants to be online or have a business or whatever. I think even programming is going to stop being a burden too because there will be systems, no code systems, that’s going to code for you. We will just drag stuff onto a UI, and the system is going to code it for you.
Damien: This feels a lot like Yahoo Pipes, which died a long time ago.
Pedro: Yeah, in a way. I’m not saying that no job is going to die, but it’s going to transfer, it’s going to change. So the focus that we give to certain areas of what we do is going to fundamentally shift more towards a supervisory role for humans and keeping machines and code in the background.
We are going to build technology to solve technology. That’s going to have a lower barrier. For example, I want the logs of my server, push a button, and you get logs of your server and analysis on those. You won’t need to pull them and compile and analyse them manually.
Damien: What I am hearing is we need to drop old practices and change our mental models on what SEO is.
Pedro: Yes, making the SEO mentality being 360 among your company and all the departments of your company. Everyone that thinks about the content that they put on the website, they have already the SEO mentality, and you just become the validator for what people want to do. As SEOs, we are then not seen as the bottleneck that pushes everything back.
Damien: In your role as managing partner and director with apis3, what are you focused on?
Pedro: Most of my efforts go towards showing clients how we solve problems. Because although we are a digital agency, I think we are more in line with a McKinsey style of operation than a digital marketing style of service. We are more consultants than executors.
We like to provoke our clients and show them the past value sometimes is unknown both to them and to us. We are willing to show them that we know to navigate based on how we can make logical things, and that usually works pretty well. Most of the challenges come about when showing why we don’t work because of the classic model of how other SEO agencies on the market work or offer. Either by our proposal, pricing or immersing into the clients’ business.
The more divided a company is, the more difficult it is to have it innovate. Innovation stems from root causes that need to rework in a certain way, and sometimes single departments are not able to address the root problem, and that is the most frustrating part of the working with big companies.
Damien: There is so much in this interview to provoke thought. It has been great to chat with you, and get your views on a changed and healthy future of SEO. Speak again soon, Pedro!